Dec. 7, 2025

The Shanghai Refugees

The Shanghai Refugees
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After Kristallnacht, there were few places still taking in Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. One of those was Shanghai, under Japanese occupation. When Japan entered the war as allies of Germany, the fate of these refugees hung in the balance.


Photo

The arrival of Jewish refugees from Austria in Shanghai. The refugees are disembarking from the Italian ship Conte Verde. 1938 December 14

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, courtesy of National Archives and Records Administration, College Park

References

German and Austrian Jewish Refugees in Shanghai

Griffiths, James.  Shanghei’s Forgotten Jewish Past in The Atlantic. 21 November 2013.  

Judgement of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East.  Part B. Chapter VII: The Pacific War.  November 1948 https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/ll/llmlp/Judgment-IMTFE-Vol-II-PartB-Chapter-VIII/Judgment-IMTFE-Vol-II-PartB-Chapter-VIII.pdf

Kozak, Warren.  The Rabbi of 84th Street: The Extraordinary Life of Haskel Besser. Harper Perennial, 2005. 

Mitter, Rana. Forgotten Ally: China’s World War II, 1937-1945. Mariner Books, 2014.  

National Public Radio.  “Where did 20,000 Jews hide from the Holocaust?  In Shanghai”.  6 August 2023.

Newman, Amy.  The Nuremberg Laws: Institutionalized Anti-Semitism.  Lucent Books Inc., 1999.

“Polish Jewish Refugees in the Shanghai Ghetto, 1941-1945”.  United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.  

“Proclamation of Restricted Zone in Shanghai for Refugees.” Issued 18 February 1943.  From the USHMM special exhibition Flight and Rescue. 

“Research Starters: Worldwide Deaths in World War II”.  The National World War II Museum: New Orleans.  

Reischauser, Edwin O.  Japan: The Story of a Nation. 4th Edition. McGraw-Hill Publishing, 1964.

 Tennembaum, Baruch.  “Feng-Shan Ho, Chinese Savior”. International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation” 

“Good-bye Mr. Ghoya pamphlet”.  Accession number 1998.49.1. Friedrich Melchior Collection.  United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington D.C. 

RG-50.477.0391.  Oral History Interview with Hans Arons.  From the Bay Area Oral History Project donated to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington DC

RG-50.477.1231. Oral History Interview with Hella Levi.  From the Bay Area Holocaust Oral History Project donated to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington DC

RG-50.462.0069 Oral History Interview with Walter Silberstein.  Gift of the Gratz College Holocaust Oral History Archive.  United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington D.C.

RG-50.462.0441. Oral History Interview with Willie Nowak From the Gratz College Oral History Archive donated to the   United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington DC

WEBVTT

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When the Japanese general entered the room, he sat down, stared at the group for a long time, five or ten minutes, without saying a word.

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The atmosphere was very tense, and it was obvious that the Jewish men were nervous.

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Finally, the governor broke his silence, speaking in Japanese with quick, terse question.

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Why do the Germans hate you so much?

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When you read a good book, or even a series of books, you can start at the first chapter and start reading.

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When you get to the end, close the book and you're done.

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You've heard the story that was there.

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History is a bit different.

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No matter how many details you get or how thorough you are at trying to understand the story, the problem is that history isn't just one story.

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It's it's everybody's story.

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It's a lot, it's all the stories.

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Sometimes history is less like reading a book, and it's more like like browsing something on Wikipedia.

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You know, you you have a question, you have something to research, so you open up the page, and then you see something interesting.

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So you click that link, and then you see something else, you click that link, and you find yourself an hour later having gone through 20 different stories, and you've learned a lot, but you are nowhere near where you started.

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Something catches your attention, and you think, Well, I wonder what the story is here.

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Well, we are are no different.

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Uh so a while back, we recorded an episode episode about the kind.

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In the 1930s, the Nazis in Germany waged a campaign of oppression against the Jews, trying to encourage them to leave.

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By the late 30s, um, the immigration quotas of countries around the world had been maxed out.

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The Jews were left with very few options of places they they could go.

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One of those was the kinder transport, which we recorded an episode about, and it there's some fantastic stories in there.

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You should should definitely go back and listen to that.

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Um, this is where the families in England opened their homes to refugee children, and they basically took them and adopted them.

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Other places that were open were the Dominican Republic and Shanghai, China.

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Something that caught our attention as we were going through here was was Shanghai.

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Because uh it's easy to think on the surface, oh that's great, they they went and hung out, you know, hung out in China for a little while.

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But the problem is that at this point in time, Shanghai, China isn't controlled by China.

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In fact, it's not that long before um this point in time that Shanghai is taken by the Japanese in the single largest and longest battle of the Second Sino-Japanese War.

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So the context is this you're a refugee, you're going into a refugee camp in China under the control of the occupying Japanese, who at this point aren't particularly well known for their hospitality in this area of China.

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And then you further realize that not too far from this point in time, Japan allies itself with Germany in World War II.

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So the question is what happens to a refugee in Japanese-controlled China when the Holocaust is going on?

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And then the Germans come and suggest to their allies they found a solution to the Jewish problem.

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Well, we needed to know.

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After Hitler came to power, things became increasingly difficult for the Jews, and many of them looked around and thought, wow, this is not going in the way we want it to go.

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So they decided to leave Germany.

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Um there it was pretty easy before um 1938 to try to get out of Germany.

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In fact, the Germans wanted Jews out.

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It was, you know, basically, we don't we don't want you here.

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If you're able to find another place to go, awesome, please do.

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And so German Jews started applying to basically any country they could find.

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South America, Dominican Republic was actually the only place that kept their doors open for Jews throughout the entire war, was the only sovereign country to do that.

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Cuba, the United States, of course, Britain, other European countries, anywhere they could go, um, Australia.

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And so they, yeah, many were able to get out.

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But eventually, immigration quotas across all the countries at different times filled up.

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There was at one point so many Jews applied during one year.

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I think it was like in 39, 40, that it would have been 11 times the amount that Jews were allowed to come in for one year.

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Yeah, for for the United States.

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And you had the example of the St.

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Louis ship that we'll get to in another podcast that came and was actually in Miami Harbor talking to people in Miami that and they were basically like, yeah, we we're not gonna let you in.

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Uh so you have examples of that, trying to get into different countries, unable to.

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And there was one place that took them in as much as possible until Kristall knocked, and that was Shanghai.

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After Kristall knocked, which was in 1938, and it was called the the night of the broken glass in Germany, things got much worse for the Jews.

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And they were able to still get to Shanghai because of a man named Ho Feng Shin, who was a diplomat from Shanghai to Austria, and he was able to get thousands of visas for Austrian Jews, like against what his superiors told him to do, but he found reasons for them to go.

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So, wait, so his superiors told him to shut it down, and he was like, nah, these people need to get out.

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We're gonna we're gonna find some way to get them out.

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I mean, they didn't say completely shut it down, but it was like a let's not do this much anymore, you unless unless there's a good reason.

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Um so he just found good reasons.

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Yes.

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And so much so that they had a whole section of Shanghai called Little Vienna, you know, for Vienna, Austria.

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But yes, so they still found ways in.

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There was, as we talked about, the kinder transport got some children out when Britain had become closed to adults.

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And so they they were basically trying anywhere they could go.

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And by 39 and 40, the only real places open without smuggling, like Sweden smuggled people in Denmark.

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There, you know, there were still Jews being hidden and smuggled, but the only places like open in the world were the international settlement in Shanghai, China, and the uh and the Dominican Republic.

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At the time, the international settlement in Shanghai, which incidentally had been set up, the precursor set up in the Treaty of Nanking, uh, that was actually where port cities were established, where basically the Chinese were like, yeah, you can you can stay here, but we'd really rather it be like in a port and not like mixed in with us.

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Uh so the international settlements, they mainly had French, Britain, American merchants, um, was basically um who lived there, the different quarters.

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I gotcha.

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So uh so at the time this there was the international settlement, but China itself, um, the Shanghai area um city was under the control of the Japanese because the Japanese had invaded China because they wanted more land as people are wont to do.

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As people are wont to do, you know, expand their territory.

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In 1937, they started the second Sino-Japanese War, which started with the Battle of Shanghai, uh, which, you know, it was 1937.

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The only thing really interesting about it for people of military history that like that kind of thing is that it was it's considered the first urban warfare.

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I think of this as like, you know, when my family around me is playing Call of Duty, and it it is the first, like in the city, um, kind of before Stalingrad.

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Stalingrad's the next one, the next one we think of, but it wasn't for another five years.

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So this is the first urban warfare of World War II?

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Ever.

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Ever.

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Like, yeah, that that's considered a major urban warfare area.

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Yes, um, civilians had been killed before in cities, towns, you know, Franco-Prussian War, Napoleonic Wars, you know, but this is like Shanghai, I'm pretty sure was in the top five largest cities in the world at the time.

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Oh wow.

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So this was like this is like somebody walking into New York City and having having battles among the among the buildings.

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Yes.

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That's fascinating.

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It it well, I think it's interesting.

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Um, but yeah.

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The Chinese probably did not think it was interesting.

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Well, you know, it's also that I think it was the Battle of Shanghai.

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It was definitely 1937.

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All of this started with the Marco Polo Bridge incident.

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I won't get into it.

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Wait, what?

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Hold on.

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Uh, you you have to give us something.

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What what was the Marco Polo Bridge incident?

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It was um it was the first time since like you know, 31 or something that there was actually disagreement fighting between the Japanese and the Chinese, which led to Battle of Shanghai shortly thereafter, the rape of Nanking, where tens of thousands of people uh were killed by the Japanese.

00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:22.559
But it was anyway, so 1937, they can some people historians considered to be like this time the first battle of World War II.

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Because Americans think of World War II, you know, as you know when Hitler invaded Poland, or maybe most Europeans think of it that way.

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I don't know.

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But Germans, many of them consider World War II starting in 1942.

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That's when the ghettos have like became in an existence.

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That's when the final solution to the Jewish question, um, which was mass killing by Eichmann at the Von Z conference came into being.

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And that's when they really see, that's when most German, German Jews that I've talked to, read transcripts of, see it as starting.

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You have when Hitler invaded Poland, that's when America, Britain see it starting.

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People in the Sudenten land go back to you know the failure of appeasement and Hitler coming into Austria.

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And so the one before that, like that would initially start this whole thing, would have been 1937 in China.

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So it really depends a bit on your perspective.

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Uh I mean, so like you said before, if if we look at Japan invading China, and then Japan was involved in conflict of some sort all the way to the end of World War II with the United States, then that would that would say, yep, Japan Japan was started it and uh and ended it.

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Yeah.

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Perhaps.

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Yep.

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That I mean, that's there are so many ways you can look and there's there's so so many ways.

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Um but yes, uh that many historians that look at the whole um war as a whole would pin it in Asia then.

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So in the years um between night between Kristallnacht, which was November of night in 1938, through 1940, so that's before America and Japan, it's before the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

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Immigration in this area of Shanghai increased from 1,500 to 20,000, many of those Austrian Jews.

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Um it's important because of because of our Chinese guy who was getting them out.

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Yeah.

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Cool.

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Yes.

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But it's important to note through all this that uh that these new immigrants, they it wasn't like they were just thrown into this mess along the way.

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They were helped along the way by various people, and uh and we'll see, you know, but they it was it was a collaborative effort when they came to Shanghai.

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And before 1941, there there was no Shanghai ghetto that when people talk about the Shanghai Jews during the war, they refer to the Shanghai ghetto, which brings images of the Jewish ghettos um in Germany, you know, surrounded by barbed wire and stuff.

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Well, even though the Germans asked the Japanese, well, told the Germ the Japanese to make a ghetto like that and implement the final solution of the Jewish problem to gas them, the Japanese did move them into this smaller area, but they didn't have barbed wire or concrete um barriers, and they let the Jews um patrol themselves.

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But this didn't happen until after Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor and Germany and Japan were allies.

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So before that, you know, there were a bunch of Jews coming to Shanghai, and you know, yeah, it was kind of crowded, but nothing like what happened after 41.

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It and even more after 43, which is when it was actually established.

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So today I want to talk about the experiences of people getting to the ghetto and in the ghetto, people that helped them along the way while they were there.

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So I'm gonna talk first about Hella Lavy.

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Her husband was in a concentration camp, and she was able to get him out of a concentration camp by having a ticket for him to go.

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She uh was actually there and and watched, and she left on a ship.

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And like while she was leaving, she saw some of her relatives just taken away and found out later they were killed in Auschwitz.

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Both of her parents who refused to go to Shanghai because uh she left before things got really, really bad.

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And the feeling of the vast majority of German Jews, and they call themselves German Jews because they see themselves more as Germans than of Jews, uh, as than as of Jews, and they didn't believe things would get worse, and they were taken to the concentration, to Auschwitz, her parents were and killed.

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Right.

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Nobody expected it.

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They they thought, yeah, this isn't great, but you know, sometimes things are rough, or you know, the the tide, the the tides of public opinion will change and and then we'll get past this.

00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:20.159
No big deal.

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Yes, I mean, you know, and we also have to keep in mind Hitler was improving the economy.

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Uh more people were back to work.

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Uh, it wasn't like Germany was falling into disarray.

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It was actually getting a lot better than it had been during the Weimar era.

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So it's like, yeah, the Jews were being treated bad.

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There were laws against them, but it wasn't anything that people saw.

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It was just a little bit at a time.

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So it wasn't anything like they saw a reason to leave.

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Because you have to remember, so there were a lot of conflicts um and political issues before Hitler came to power, especially with the communists.

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Um, then Hitler came to power.

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A lot of things happened the first year: the Enabling Act and Editor's Law, the sterilization law, just a lot of things.

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The Reichstag fire, I could keep going.

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And that happened the first year.

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Hindenburg didn't die until the next year.

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He was the president at the time, and then things, you know, Hitler had complete control then.

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But between like 33 and 35, September of 35, there was nothing really huge.

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So in 1934, you know, it was like there was this new normal.

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Until the Nuremberg Laws.

00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:51.039
Yeah, Nuremberg Laws were September 1935, and that uh got rid of Jewish citizenship, you know, tracked Jewish blood, and went back several generations and they would track it.

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And as we'll see in a few minutes, um, one guy was actually out of the country when this happened and it took away his citizenship, and he came back and was just like, what?

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Surprised, you know, this is and more.

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But that was in '95 or '35.

00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.519
And then still things were pretty smooth.

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I mean, things it wasn't great.

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People were racist against the Jews, but it wasn't, you know, constant like walls and things happening until Kristallnocked um in November of 1938, which still nobody really saw coming.

00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:37.440
Uh so you know, you had, but by that time, by that time, Kristallnacht, all these other countries had filled their immigration quotas.

00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:37.920
Right.

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There was no place else to go.

00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.279
So there was no place else to go.

00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.559
That uh let me I just want to tell you a hella story.

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I'm gonna read from her transcript.

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When I pick up with her, she's on the ship going to Shanghai.

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She says, quote, the condition on the ships were fine.

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It was a regular private boat, it was not a troop transport.

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Passengers were all Jewish, and you were put wherever, first class, second class.

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It didn't make any difference.

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The food was reasonable food.

00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.960
I don't know how they did with people who were orthodox.

00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.359
I have no idea because I wasn't, but I guess they may do.

00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.759
And we made a trip around the world.

00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:25.119
Actually, we went to all these countries: Hong Kong, Suez Canal, India, we crossed the Red Sea.

00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:29.039
Um, and wait, no, they were not all Jewish.

00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:36.480
Come to think of it, there were other passengers because there was a couple with two children, non-Jewish, who got off in Bombay.

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And I remember now, so there must have been non-Jewish people on the boat too.

00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:50.400
But it could have been a pleasant trip if it wasn't that we were so upset and nervous, of course, worrying that the ones we had left behind.

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And most of them had, at least, I would say, 99% of people on the ship had somebody left behind and people already in concentration camps.

00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:02.960
Sure, we were worried about it.

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That's why you had it would have been a beautiful trip, but we had nothing of it, absolutely nothing.

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And Jewish communities, like in Bombay, they came to the ship and they brought clothes and they brought us things like that.

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And we left those places with fairly good stuff.

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The ones who traveled with us, I got acquainted with and they were pretty nice.

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Of course, we had nothing to take along with us, no money, and we really appreciated the things that people gave us.

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And that was in April.

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So it was a four-week trip, end quote.

00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.559
So this was a four week trip.

00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.400
She talks about you know the things that people along the way gave them.

00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.160
Now, Hella herself was middle upper class.

00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.079
So she's arriving there, you know.

00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:58.000
As she said, she couldn't take much money, and the people on the ship appreciated the things.

00:19:58.000 --> 00:19:59.759
She did not necessarily.

00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.440
Need the things from um Bombay, the things offered to them.

00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:20.559
But she was, you know, talking about how people had helped them along the way, knowing, I mean, because you know, you see someone from your community, and even though concentration camps weren't really known then, it's still a refugee ship of people that need help then.

00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:27.200
But it's it's really cool that people from those communities came out to to help them along their way.

00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:27.920
Yes.

00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:28.559
Yeah.

00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:30.480
And kind of surprising too.

00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:31.920
It was to me, you know.

00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:33.119
I I I don't know.

00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:38.799
I just have trouble envisioning a Jewish community in India coming to the door.

00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:43.440
Well, if they're there and they know that they know that somebody's coming, they're gonna go take care of them.

00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:44.000
Right.

00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:44.799
That's community.

00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:46.000
It it really is.

00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:55.680
So, quote Shanghai was, at that time, already under Japanese occupation, and the district where they took us was completely bombed out.

00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:05.279
And when we arrived with the ship, we were loaded on a truck, standing up, and when we drove through these places, you know, all bombed out houses and everything.

00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.640
Coming to a place like this, it was just horrible.

00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:14.799
And where we stayed, these were all schools which were built up by people who had come previously.

00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:20.160
And they were built up and we were in the a so-called camp.

00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:24.240
The schools we had, I think, this one was the biggest.

00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:27.680
There were 600 people in it, and there were smaller ones.

00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:28.640
End quote.

00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:39.200
I'm just gonna say, so a lot of them stayed in it was bombed out a lot and stayed in school buildings, is what was left standing a lot.

00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:47.200
One of the men who came in earlier and helped was with the joint Jewish distribution committee.

00:21:47.200 --> 00:22:01.599
And some of the people, this was Hans Erend, but he was one of the ones that got there first, and they would set up um ways to deliver food and supplies and things to the Jews that arrived.

00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:07.680
And so when she talks about being loaded on a truck, well, yeah, that that's all they had.

00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:20.720
Um, and they were supplied by this committee that had um outreach into different parts of Shanghai, different parts of the world, including the United States at at one later on.

00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:29.680
Um, but they were able to help and extend um well donations and things to the people who were in Shanghai.

00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:38.240
She said, um, quote, there were most people lived about 10 to 12 in one room, ten to twelve couples in one room.

00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:44.319
These were all iron beds, bunk beds, the men slept upstairs and women downstairs.

00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:45.839
There was no privacy.

00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:49.039
All the privacy they had was a sheet around the beds.

00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.039
This was the privacy there was.

00:22:51.039 --> 00:23:02.400
Cooking was Chinese food on charcoal stoves, but we were kept alive, let's say it this way, by the American Joint Committee, because they supplied us with food.

00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:06.640
The food wasn't good, but I mean it was enough to survive on.

00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:20.400
And we built up really, for some reason or other, we built up our own community, and people started having little stores where they sold to others, and you worked for the joint committee and you got a small amount of money for it.

00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:21.519
We worked.

00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.720
My husband was a mechanic and he worked for them.

00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.680
He repaired the beds and all kinds of other things, and then I started working.

00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.400
In my profession is a kindergarten teacher.

00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.799
I was in Germany already.

00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:45.839
And there was a new children's home in Shanghai and the kindergarten was really beautiful, all modern facilities, and I was well for a while I was in charge of it.

00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:51.359
First I worked for it, then I was in charge of it, until it was given up after a while.

00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.160
But it was still there for many years.

00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:59.839
We were lucky because my husband, as I said, my husband was a mechanic.

00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:05.839
He worked for the joint, and he found a room which was originally a kind of closet.

00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:08.880
It was just about as big as this square here is.

00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.079
But it you you could close the door behind you.

00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:16.960
He found an iron bed, which he put in it, and so we had our own private room.

00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:20.720
It was one of the biggest privileges there was, of course.

00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:33.599
There was running water, and our particular camp had toilets, which most of the time didn't work, so because Shanghai had no canalization as such, the Chinese had none at all.

00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.039
And they had these, what do you call them, basins?

00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:39.519
They were picked up every day and emptied.

00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:45.119
And most of the other places had the same thing, uh, like you have in the country.

00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:49.359
There was there was no plumbing, and you couldn't drink any water.

00:24:49.359 --> 00:25:02.559
The water had to be boiled, you couldn't have any salad or anything like this, and of course, people died by the hundreds from malnutrition, as well as cholera, typhoid, dysentery.

00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:09.039
But we did interact with the Chinese people, and they very quickly learned pidgin English.

00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:13.039
While we, most of us, well, we never learned Chinese.

00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:21.839
We were restricted to an area in Hong Kong, and now it was under Japanese occupation, and they had soldiers standing out.

00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:24.079
You could not leave this particular area.

00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:25.039
End quote.

00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:26.880
She says Hong Kong here.

00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.799
I'm not sure she means Hong Kong, um, because she was in Shanghai.

00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:31.119
Right.

00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:32.720
But it's an easy mistake to make.

00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:34.400
It's an easy mistake to make.

00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:47.440
And you know, I just want people to be aware that really that that she wasn't she wasn't really in Hong Kong, which incidentally was established by the Treaty of Nanking in the Opium Wars.

00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:48.160
Okay.

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.200
Man, the Opium Wars, just responsible for all kinds of good things.

00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:51.839
Yeah.

00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.559
Those British druggies drugging the Chinese.

00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:56.799
And establishing cool places.

00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:57.519
Quote.

00:25:57.519 --> 00:25:59.920
And there was this Japanese guy.

00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:03.279
He called himself the god of the Jews, Goya.

00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:07.599
And he was a little, tiny little guy, and he was just terrible.

00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:15.200
I mean, you could you couldn't leave, you couldn't do anything, and we were restricted with everything, but we made the most out of it.

00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.559
We built our community, we had our own synagogue.

00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:23.359
I mean, we didn't build the synagogue, we kept it, and it worked fine.

00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:31.440
We had a watch for people who watched the camps and people working, like I said, as my husband, and little by little we built up the community.

00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:39.359
There were little cafe houses and people who had a bakery before they started baking, if they could, and they sold secondhand things.

00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:43.200
It really was a community, a working community.

00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:49.200
But we knew nothing of what was happening outside the uh the camp.

00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.640
Um as I said, in the camp, people died.

00:26:52.640 --> 00:27:00.480
And it's frightening, of course, when you look, but nevertheless, people were born, babies were born, they grew up, and they were beautiful.

00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:08.480
And my husband and I, we felt it wasn't the right time to have children in China because we had nothing, not enough to eat ourselves.

00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:13.759
But the children grew up pretty healthy, and of course, the children had special food anyway.

00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:18.559
The best food went to the children, which was, well it wasn't more than fair.

00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:21.119
The cooking, lots of for our children.

00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:24.799
They lived on potatoes and carrots for many, many days in a row.

00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:26.480
That's all we could give them.

00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:34.160
But it's amazing what a human body can stand without without really having too much damage done, unless you get sick.

00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:43.839
We loved it when the American bombers came over in the beginning, because they always came at the same time and we stood out and watched the B 12s come over.

00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:55.680
But at one time they either made a mistake or they were looking for something, and bombs fell in our community and killed quite a few people, and ever since, of course, nobody was happy anymore.

00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:59.200
I remember very well when the war was over though.

00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:04.240
It was in August, and I remember we were in our room and we were asleep.

00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:08.960
All of a sudden, people had radios and they were listening overseas.

00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:23.440
And we heard afterwards, I don't know if this is really true, I think it's true, that the Japanese emperor wouldn't allow Hitler to because he wanted to put us in gas chambers, but the Japanese Emperor didn't allow that.

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:25.200
He wouldn't go along with it.

00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.359
So maybe he saved our lives.

00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:32.640
But I remember we were already in bed and all of a sudden we heard a loud noise outside.

00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:37.119
Everybody, the war is over, the war is over, and that was it.

00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:39.519
And then, of course, it got better.

00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:43.599
We got GI rations, then our food got better, and it helped.

00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:45.680
It helped a lot after that.

00:28:45.680 --> 00:29:01.839
Of course, people started to get affidavits from um well people didn't get affidavits, but we got um mass affidavits and could go to Israel or to the United States, and gradually everybody left, or to go to South America.

00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:04.559
My parents never left Germany.

00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:05.599
They perished.

00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:08.160
In 1942 they were deported.

00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:12.880
And when the war was over, I wrote to Arrolsson, where all the papers are kept.

00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:16.000
And this is the most amazing thing about the Germans.

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:21.680
They had there were well, they broke their necks to keep all these uh documents.

00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:27.119
They showed exactly what happened, and they had the deporting date and everything on it.

00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.359
No, my family never made it.

00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:30.480
They were deported.

00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.839
And so were my parents-in-law with their one daughter.

00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:35.039
End quote.

00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.599
Now when they say deported, they mean killed at Auschwitz.

00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:43.279
Oh, sit to so they were deported to a concentration camp.

00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:43.599
Yes.

00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:46.960
So Auschwitz was in Poland, so I guess they were deported from Germany.

00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:48.079
Yes, exactly.

00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:48.799
Gotcha.

00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.599
And that's the story of of Hella.

00:29:51.599 --> 00:30:00.799
I want to talk next about a man who we're gonna pick up his story when he was in the Czech Republic being a pharmaceutical salesman.

00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:14.880
Um going to be working from the transcript of Willy Novak, who was actually born in like 1910 and lived um through the first revolution, through through a lot in Germany.

00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:24.880
He went to the Czech Republic from like 35 to 37, and we're just gonna pick up with him in Czechoslovakia as a young man.

00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:29.200
Quote Czechoslovakia was actually around the borders.

00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.000
They were f former Germany, I would say.

00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:37.279
Then in the southern part were the people who spoke Hungarian and Russian.

00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:45.440
This was all on the southern border, and in the heart of the actual Czechoslovakia, there were Czechs, which was only a very small section.

00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.559
They didn't even speak German, they just spoke Czech.

00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:51.440
Or if they spoke German, they didn't want to speak it.

00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:53.920
So therefore, everything was mixed.

00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:58.880
The real pure Czech section was only the very little section in the heart of the country.

00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:01.920
So that's why you could do anything in certain languages.

00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:05.599
You could speak German all over, and that's how we did business.

00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:09.839
And it was not hard to do the German language and do business in the Czech Republic.

00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:17.519
I couldn't tell that anything was happening in this area of the country in 1935 and 36.

00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:22.000
It was really at the border that things were happening.

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.440
And I wrote a friend that I wanted to come back.

00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:29.920
I've been in the Czech Republic for two years and I didn't wait for his answer.

00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.880
I just packed my stuff and went back to Berlin.

00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:38.799
And when I got there I went to the next telephone booth because he wasn't at the station.

00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:44.880
Usually when you expect someone, you go to the station and wait for the person to come out of the train.

00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:46.480
And he wasn't there.

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.359
And I was looking and I couldn't find him.

00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:53.359
So I went out and outside he was standing there waiting for me.

00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:55.440
And I said, What is this?

00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.599
Why didn't you come to the train?

00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.759
He said, Come on, I'll tell you outside, not here.

00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.640
He said, Didn't you get my letter?

00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:05.839
I said, No.

00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:07.119
What letter?

00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.839
Well, I wrote you not to come back.

00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:19.759
Because if you come back from Czechoslovakia, they put you in a schooling camp for about six months, which is like a concentration camp, and I didn't want you to go through this.

00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:20.960
End quote.

00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.559
So this guy was a German.

00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:36.480
This re-schooling camp that they would go to for six months or so if they were out of the country, was just to indoctrinate them into Nazi ideology.

00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.720
So when you say he was a German, do you mean he was a non-Jewish German?

00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:42.000
Well, he was Jewish.

00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:42.480
Okay.

00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:51.599
And his passport with the Nuremberg laws, the Nuremberg laws revoked Jewish citizenship of Germans in 1935.

00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:55.839
So what happened was when he left Germany, he was a citizen.

00:32:55.839 --> 00:33:02.880
And then the laws came out that were like, oh yeah, yeah, you're not anymore because you're Jewish.

00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:04.799
And he didn't know this.

00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:09.279
And so when he came back, you know, he wasn't gonna get his passport.

00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:17.039
He didn't get his passport back and was treated as if he'd never been there before and wasn't German.

00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:18.160
That would be a surprise.

00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:20.160
Oh, it was very much a surprise.

00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:21.279
Very much.

00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:23.920
And uh because he didn't know any of this.

00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:30.079
Like like he was just explaining, the Czech Republic, there was really nothing happening there.

00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:33.680
You know, the they didn't even really speak German.

00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:42.960
They they could, but it was just kind of like things were happening on the border, but that wasn't where he was at the time, and he had no idea this was gonna happen.

00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:52.480
So he left Germany just being a regular German dude, and while he was gone, it's like surprise, your citizenship is gone.

00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:53.920
And he went there for work.

00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:54.319
Right.

00:33:54.319 --> 00:34:03.119
Um he was going to try to establish different offices, and uh he was actually in Brno, Czechoslovakia, which is near the center of it.

00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:08.480
But he had no idea that any of this had happened.

00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:24.400
So it was very much a shock for him because it's like, you know, you leave the country for work and it's just like, oh, yeah, you come back a couple of years later, yeah, you you're not a citizen and sorry about your luck.

00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.559
So he started to go to um the police.

00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.920
His friend told him to go to the police station to get a passport.

00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:47.440
Quote, I knew I didn't want to go in there naturally, so I went like the first thing happened that I came back was I went to the police and wanted to register as a citizen who had just returned, and wanted to give them my address and everything.

00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:51.199
So they said, Oh no, that's not the way we do it.

00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:53.440
You came from Czechoslovakia.

00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:58.000
So I got a summons right away the next day to the Gestapo.

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:08.079
So this friend of mine went with me and I said, You wait outside, because if something happens, if you see me coming out in company with someone, we don't know each other.

00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.480
Because I didn't want him to get in trouble.

00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:15.679
So I went into the office and there was a typical Prussian officer there with a mustache.

00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:19.440
And when I saw that, I felt better already.

00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.400
So he waited outside and I went in.

00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.840
And there is this real old Prussian official sitting there.

00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:26.079
Okay.

00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:27.599
End quote.

00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:38.239
It's important that he's a Prussian official because the police were different than the Gestapo and the brown shirts and Nazis at the time.

00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:50.800
And in many cases, the police were still friends, still German, still nice to Jews, still basically normal everyday people that would treat him as an equal.

00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:55.920
So when he saw oppression there, he assumed that it was a it was a friendly police officer.

00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:57.599
Yeah, a friendly police officer.

00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:00.960
So it was like a feeling a little better about life.

00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:01.440
Okay.

00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:04.400
Okay, so quote.

00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.760
So I said to him that I would like to have a passport.

00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:16.320
I would like to have this changed as my address as German, as I'm a German now living in Germany with a residence not in a foreign country.

00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:21.840
He said, Well, you have to wait four months, three months, two months.

00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:22.719
I don't know.

00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.960
But you have to wait until we call you.

00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:30.880
I said, No, I can't wait because I have to work and have to go out on business.

00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:38.320
So he said, Well, you traveled and you lived here already without being a citizen, so what difference does it make?

00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:40.400
I said, Now wait a minute.

00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:49.119
First of all, I didn't know I'm not a citizen anymore, and as you can see on my passport, I am a German citizen.

00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:53.280
This was arranged at the consulate in Czechoslovakia before I left.

00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:59.920
So I am a German citizen who was living in another country, and therefore I didn't do anything wrong.

00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:01.280
Here's the passport.

00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:07.199
He said, Well, you have to return that passport because you aren't a citizen anymore.

00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:11.199
We took your citizenship away when you were in Czechoslovakia.

00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:16.960
Because I was a Jew and I left Germany, so they took the citizenship away, which I didn't know.

00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.920
So I said, Let me ask you a question.

00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:27.599
How do you handle this when someone is living in another country and you take his citizenship away and you don't notify the people?

00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:32.880
He said, Well, we couldn't notify you because you weren't here.

00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:34.880
We didn't have the address.

00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:40.239
I said, Well, you had the address and you wanted me now.

00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:50.559
He said, Well, you could have read that in the official employees of the government um special paper that only government employees could get.

00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.519
I said, Let me ask you a question.

00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:55.280
Do you read that paper?

00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:56.320
He laughed.

00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:57.679
He said, No.

00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:59.519
I said, Fine.

00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:03.840
Now, if you didn't read it, how am I supposed to read it?

00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.840
So he laughed and I laughed and I figured now I have one.

00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:11.039
So he said, I'll tell you what to do.

00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:22.000
You have to leave your passport, but you go right down to the next floor, the Gestapo headquarters, and apply for a stateless passport so that you can travel without getting in trouble.

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:28.559
And when you do that, ask for a receipt for your application so you can't get in any trouble when they're traveling.

00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:30.400
So they gave this to me.

00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:38.000
So if, for example, it was customary during that time when you were in a hotel, you had to leave your passport with the desk.

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:40.239
And then when you leave, you get it back.

00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:47.760
So I said, Well, if I have no proof that my passport is even a stateless passport, what am I supposed to do?

00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:56.239
He said, Okay, I'll give you a receipt that you've applied, which you can take with you so that you are protected in case you have questions.

00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:58.800
Or in case you have any questions.

00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.119
This was exactly the way it happened.

00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:02.639
Nobody bothered me.

00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:10.880
I had my proof that I had applied for a stateless passport, and when I returned to Berlin, I got notice that my passport was ready to be picked up.

00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:19.360
The first thing I noticed in Berlin was Jews not wanted signs in every store and every restaurant and all over.

00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:21.039
And I was well known there.

00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:31.920
I had traveled for years and knew every hotel, so they were always small hotels which did not display that particular sign, and I used to go to those hotels and stay there.

00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:41.119
I came to one hotel which I knew before, and I went in the dining room after I had taken my room, took my clothes, and refreshed myself and so on.

00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:45.920
And I came into the dining room, and they greeted me already as an old friend.

00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:56.960
When I was ordering the dinner and reading the menu and giving my order, I looked up, and behind the wardrobe stand where you put your clothes was that sign, Jews not wanted.

00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:03.440
So I said, Call the owner, and it was A lady, she came out and she said, What's the matter?

00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.480
I said, Cancel my order and cancel my room.

00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:07.519
I'm leaving.

00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:09.440
She said, What's the matter?

00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:10.159
Why?

00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:12.000
I said, You see this?

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.760
So she took a coat and she hung it over the sign and she said, Do you see that sign?

00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:19.039
I said, No.

00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:21.039
Well, what do you want?

00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:23.280
This is the way they handled it.

00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:28.480
So I stayed there naturally, and there was always a place where you could stay, of course.

00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.440
Then I met this is an interesting part.

00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:38.000
Then I met a young man who I knew as a competitor, a salesman, a competitor from another company.

00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:41.119
And he said, Willie, how are you?

00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:44.320
We had actually met in a customer's place.

00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:52.159
I was waiting outside because if someone goes in, we used to wait outside for the competitor to come out and then we would go in.

00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:55.679
So he said, Willie, when did you come back?

00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:58.079
I said, just a few weeks ago.

00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.239
He said, Let's talk about it.

00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:01.280
I'm finished.

00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:02.480
I will wait for you.

00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:05.039
When you finish, we will go and have coffee.

00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:19.039
And he and he was um horst whistle horst vessel H O R S T W E S S E L he spells it out.

00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:25.599
He really wants people to know this name, quote, was the man who composed the song and was a good friend.

00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:28.960
When they were very when they were together, we waited.

00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:33.119
And when he finished, he said, let's go together and have coffee.

00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:37.519
And I said, Okay, where are you going now?

00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:41.760
He said, I'm going this week, all the way down to southern Germany.

00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:43.840
He said, I have a car.

00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:45.920
I didn't have a car at the time.

00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:47.519
How about we go together?

00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:49.440
I said, now wait a minute.

00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:51.360
You're working for a competitor.

00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.679
They will know very soon that you and I are going together, and I am in your car.

00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:57.119
And do you know what that means?

00:41:57.119 --> 00:41:59.360
You are taking a Jew in your car.

00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:01.679
He said, Let me worry about that.

00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:03.039
We go together.

00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:08.079
So he took me in his car and we went together for three or four weeks in his car.

00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:13.039
When we came back to Berlin, he said, Well, we'll meet again on Monday.

00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:14.639
This was over the weekend.

00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:17.760
We meet on Monday again and we go together again.

00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:24.239
I said, Look, you better check this because you're going to get into trouble with your company, and I don't want this.

00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:29.760
Yes, so sure enough on Monday he called and said, Willie, I am very sorry.

00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:31.679
I said, Don't tell me.

00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:33.840
I told you this would happen before.

00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.039
I don't want you to get into trouble, so forget it.

00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:40.719
And of course then we split up, and I took the train again.

00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:41.920
That was all.

00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:46.639
We only um communicated then with cards and so on.

00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:49.119
But there was another interesting incident.

00:42:49.119 --> 00:43:00.880
When I was traveling, I set up distributors in certain areas, so I had an ad in the paper, and I interviewed them at night in a hotel to see if I could set up for local distributor for our projects.

00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:02.960
And this man came to the hotel.

00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:06.800
He had applied for distributorship, and he was a local salesman.

00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:09.280
He had several companies that he represented.

00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:11.840
So we sat together and I liked him.

00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:17.039
And he also came from Berlin and I hired him for that particular area as a distributor.

00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:21.119
And one day he came and said, You know, this is interesting.

00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:29.360
I took him together with me to the train and to introduce him to the local customers, so told him that he would represent our company instead of me.

00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:37.440
So one evening we were in our hotel after we'd worked together and made our reports and he said, You know, a funny thing happened.

00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:43.119
There was one drugstore that had about eight branches in the city, in other words, like a chain.

00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:46.480
He said, You know this guy what he said to me today?

00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:47.920
I said, No.

00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.119
He said, You know the man with whom you're working?

00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:52.239
Well he's a Jew.

00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:54.639
And he, the salesman, laughed.

00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:55.840
Would you believe that?

00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:57.519
Now I was fast thinking.

00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:03.199
I figured if I say something now, I pull the rug out from under his feet, so I didn't say anything.

00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:06.079
I didn't say yes or no or nothing.

00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:08.880
I just didn't react to it and let it go.

00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:14.000
And I had made up my mind when I came back to Berlin that I'd meet him, that I would tell him.

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.719
And we worked together, we continued working.

00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:18.159
Everything was fine.

00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:24.239
I left for Berlin and about two or three weeks later he called me and said, Willie, how are you?

00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:26.000
I'm back here temporarily.

00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:27.920
How about having some coffee?

00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:29.760
And I said, Fine.

00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:31.199
I'd made up my mind.

00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:38.400
When he walks in, I'm sitting at the table, and I'm gonna tell him that I'm a Jew, and if he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to sit at the table.

00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:46.639
And he came in and I was already waiting, and I said, Before you sit down, I want you to know, and he said, I know that.

00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:48.880
I said, What do you mean you know that?

00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:51.039
He said, I've known for quite a while.

00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:52.559
I said, How come?

00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:56.559
He said, There was this Jewish girl that I knew when we were young.

00:44:56.559 --> 00:45:06.079
We grew up in the same neighborhood in Berlin, and I found her in a cafe house in which we were sitting, and she was a prostitute, a Jewish prostitute.

00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:09.360
And of course he said to me, You know that girl?

00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:11.840
And I said, Yeah, we grew up together.

00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:12.960
He said, Oh.

00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:14.559
So I didn't say anything.

00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.480
She had told him that I was a Jew.

00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:19.920
And I said, And you still went with me to do this stuff?

00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:21.760
And he said, Sure.

00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:23.599
Forgive me.

00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:24.719
Another thing.

00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:29.679
I had all my customers as I told you, and a few customers, one in particular.

00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:35.840
I remember when I came back from Czechoslovakia, he said to me, I thought you don't live anymore.

00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:37.440
I thought they killed you.

00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.079
I said, Why should they kill me?

00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:42.880
He said, Well, you're Jewish.

00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:44.960
I said, How do you know?

00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:46.559
He said, I know.

00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:48.400
I've known for a long time.

00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:53.760
He said, I also know all the people here, and they all told me that you were Jewish.

00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:56.400
And they all bought from me anyway.

00:45:56.400 --> 00:46:01.199
So I said, Well, if that's the case, why do you buy from me?

00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:03.119
He said, Why not?

00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:10.400
We're doing business together, and it's nobody's business with whom I do business, and I've known you for years, and that's all.

00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:20.159
Even after they knew, only one person that I remember, one or two, who said, Lily, we can't deal with you, so please don't be angry.

00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:24.400
We would like to have you come by in the evening or something, but not on business.

00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:32.239
They still wanted to see me socially, but they were afraid that someone would perhaps report us if they were doing business with a Jew.

00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:44.239
You you must understand that these were all smaller towns, not like Philadelphia or Berlin or something, but that was also an exception because they felt they were forced to do this to protect themselves.

00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:48.239
All this was before Kristallnacht in Berlin.

00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:53.840
And I lived with a friend in his apartment, and he lived with his mother, who was a widow.

00:46:53.840 --> 00:47:01.360
And I woke up at night hearing glass shattering and people running, and I didn't know what it was, what caused it, and nothing.

00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:10.079
And then in the morning, a friend of mine, who was half Jewish, still had a car, called me and said, Willie, I want to take a ride with you.

00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:12.239
A little ride with my car.

00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:14.960
Let's take a look at what's going on here.

00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:20.079
We didn't we all didn't know, we heard, but only on the radio.

00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:24.000
We heard in the morning, and he said, Let's take a look at what's going on.

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:25.679
So we went in his car.

00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:31.280
He was half Jewish, so he didn't have a license at that time, um, and it showed he was a Jew.

00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:35.679
We parked the car and started walking, and we saw the synagogue burning.

00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:43.840
We were also standing here on the side of the burning synagogue, and we saw them throwing prayer books and all the prayer shawls and all that was laying down.

00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:54.320
So we were standing on the other side, with other people, of course, and we heard laughing, and my friend, who was almost a head taller than I, had to stand behind me, holding my arms.

00:47:54.320 --> 00:48:05.039
I wanted to run over and pick up a prayer book or something, and he held me so I couldn't move, and then we went around and we saw how they threw the furniture out of the apartments where the Jews lived.

00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:07.679
They threw everything out, and we all saw that.

00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:10.719
They broke into the houses and threw the furniture away.

00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:14.159
They sent the kids into the candy stores to take candy.

00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:18.480
These were citizens, not Nazis, just the citizens.

00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:25.760
The Nazis were standing there in uniform, but otherwise it was citizens, my fellow citizens.

00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:27.679
Oh yes, they enjoyed it.

00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:30.000
Now this is a personal opinion on it.

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:32.639
Some of them just enjoyed it for the fun of it.

00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:34.960
Not even because they hated Jews.

00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:36.960
They just liked to see that.

00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:44.960
There was also satisfaction that the Jews were getting it, but not all of them at that moment, at least expressed that kind of thinking.

00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:49.679
One day a friend of my fiance's father said, We have to leave.

00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:52.639
The only place that was open was Shanghai.

00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:59.280
He, in fact, was the only one who told us Shanghai was the only place that you could go, so that's where we went.

00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:06.719
You had to wait because the ships were overloaded with people, but we took an Italian liner and left for Genoa.

00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:09.280
So we went to Genoa by ship.

00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:15.679
We took ten German marks and our immediate possessions, no rings, no jewelry, nothing.

00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:18.000
The boat trip took four weeks.

00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:22.000
Now you must understand I came from a pretty normal life.

00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:28.079
We arrived in Shanghai and we saw ruins, wrecked houses, damaged houses, nothing.

00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:36.239
And we were put on trucks like prisoners by Jewish organizations, because they had no other transportation for so many people.

00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:42.639
We were brought through the streets and there were no houses standing anymore because it was the Chinese-Japanese war.

00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:45.199
Now I must explain this to you first.

00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:48.880
Shanghai was an international settlement, as you may know.

00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:53.519
Now the actual city of Shanghai in Chinese hands was taboo for us.

00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:54.880
We couldn't go in there.

00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.800
We were the English settlement did not take refugees in.

00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:02.000
The French took a few in the beginning and then they stopped.

00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:10.800
So we were put in the Japanese occupied by the Japanese district, which was completely destroyed, and only school buildings had been repaired for us.

00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:19.840
We were brought by trucks to those school buildings, which were repaired for our purpose, and they had bunks, two up and two down, 41 people in one room.

00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:27.280
For example, in our case, there were 41 people in one large room, one stove, and we put in bunks two by two.

00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:31.280
Our children were here, we were up, and that's the way we were put.

00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:33.360
21 people in one room.

00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:35.440
But we did.

00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:38.159
Then the other people, of course, we put curtains.

00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:42.000
We made ourselves curtains to have a little privacy.

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:48.880
We were restricted by the Japanese, in other words, in front of each camp we were in a refugee camp.

00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:56.079
And I must say this, the Russians, if it had not been for them, the Russians gave us money.

00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:57.599
The Russian Jews.

00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:03.440
For this particular action that was given to feed us, for example, there were kitchens, we called it.

00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:07.280
In every home or camp, there was a kitchen where we were fed.

00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:09.599
Yes, we would stand in line to get our food.

00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:14.400
We would go in and eat it in the room that was financed by the joint distribution committee.

00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:18.960
The joint was financed at this time temporarily by Russian Jews.

00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:24.559
In Shanghai, they gave the money with the understanding that after the war they would be reimbursed.

00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:28.880
So they gave the money so that we could eat, then get they got reimbursed later.

00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:30.800
But I don't know if they ever did.

00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:32.159
I have no idea.

00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:37.840
They lived in the French section mostly, actually mostly in the French section.

00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:46.320
Okay, so there were different Jewish groups at the time in Shanghai and the international settlement.

00:51:46.320 --> 00:52:08.559
Russian Jews came around the time of the Russian Revolution, so 19s and 1920s, fleeing the pilgrims, which were, you know, racist things against Jewish people, kind of like what the Nazis did to the Jews, but yeah, they're fleeing that, fleeing the Russian Revolution.

00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:16.320
There were other Jews there that lived in their own settlements that had come even before that in like the mid-19th century.

00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:22.159
Anyway, so the Separdic Jews um lived mainly in the business center.

00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:30.000
Quote When the war started, our section was completely closed off by the Japanese.

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:34.400
No one could go in or out without a certain special pass that they gave out.

00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:36.239
You had to apply for it.

00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:46.559
For example, Elsie, my wife, worked out of the district w that we were in and she had to have a special pass for the time she left for work and when she came back.

00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:50.239
That was the time she was permitted to go out of the district.

00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:54.079
And there is another thing they did, which was very smart.

00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:56.639
We ourselves controlled our own people.

00:52:56.639 --> 00:53:10.079
In other words, they set up a militia consisting of our people under their supervision and every soldier, for example, the entrance to the camp, the exit to the camp, everything was controlled by us.

00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:18.559
We were given, we were picked out from them, they picked out certain people and a certain leader who would be in charge of the area.

00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:26.239
For example, an uncle of mine was very friendly with the Japanese officer, and through him I was friendly with him.

00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:27.920
But that was about it.

00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:33.280
But there was a little more on the Japanese side and taking more advantage, shall we say.

00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:34.320
End quote.

00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:51.679
So this next part I don't usually read the interchange between the interviewer and the interviewee to try to make it make more sense and be more coherent because it can be confusing when you go back and forth.

00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:55.199
But this next part I think is very important.

00:53:55.199 --> 00:54:00.320
So I'm going to go between interviewer and interviewee.

00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:14.159
The interviewer was a female Jennifer Flowers, and she said, quote, Did the Japanese themselves crack down in terms of relations with the Jews, or were they more strict about not letting you out of the quarter?

00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:21.599
They were strict in that respect, but I would say they cracked down on us just for that reason, only that reason.

00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:26.880
That was the only restriction we had, was not being able to go in and out.

00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:30.559
Did your lives change during the war?

00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:36.079
During that time, oh yes, it changed because we didn't have the freedom to move.

00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:42.400
We had to apply, as I said, to a certain office for permission to go out and things like that.

00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:44.079
Otherwise no.

00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:46.159
Was the money the same?

00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:48.000
Were you able to work as much?

00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:48.960
Yeah.

00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:53.199
Was the joint committee as involved where funds were available?

00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:55.599
The joint still took care of us.

00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:57.840
There were still no difficulties.

00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:02.639
That was all done by the joint and the Japanese did not interfere with that.

00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:08.000
Did you feel any antisemitism on the part of the Oriental population?

00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:08.800
No.

00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:10.800
Well let me put it this way.

00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:19.360
If, like I worked, for example, in the nightclubs or bars, or things like that, if a Japanese would be drunk, he could abuse you.

00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:27.199
He would say something or he would try to, not necessarily as a Jew, but just because we were white.

00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:43.920
In fact, I don't know if you know that already, that as we found out, the man who was in charge of the district where we had to apply for permits to go out and get things like that, he was the one that saved our lives, because the Germans had set up necessary equipment for gas for us.

00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:46.320
Where did they set it up?

00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:47.280
Somewhere.

00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:53.599
We don't know where, but we read about it afterwards and he was the one who did not permit that it would be done.

00:55:53.599 --> 00:55:55.280
What was his name?

00:55:55.280 --> 00:56:05.920
Kanoya Goya KANOH G H O Y A Called himself the King of the Jews.

00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:09.920
And he didn't agree to cooperate with the Germans?

00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:12.480
No, he did not agree.

00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:15.440
You didn't know this until after the war.

00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:16.239
No.

00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:22.480
In fact, a friend of ours who was in Japan, he found out that Goya was the one who saved us.

00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.440
His name was Walter Silverstein.

00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:32.079
So I read this and I was like, wow, that's pretty cool.

00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:34.960
Uh you know, I have to research more about this.

00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:36.960
Who is Walter Silverstein?

00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:40.239
Who is this Goya guy, and what is even going on right now?

00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:41.840
And I know.

00:56:41.840 --> 00:57:01.360
And so I delved back into the wonderful world of the internet and rabbit-holed my way back to the Holocaust archives, where I found the same interviewer, interviewed Walter Silverstein, and I and gave his account.

00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:07.360
So Silverstein was the son of one of the rabbis there in the district.

00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:15.840
And so he actually would probably know what was going on at the time, as opposed to many who weren't like in the know.

00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:25.119
And so I just I wanted to read part of his transcript where he talks about his interaction with Goya.

00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:35.840
And I'm gonna, with this one as well, I'm just going to have the interchange between the interviewer and interviewee because I think it's that important that I want to get everything right.

00:57:35.840 --> 00:57:43.199
And you know, I I don't want there to be any question of what they said versus what I said at all.

00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:47.760
And so I'm just going to read it all verbatim.

00:57:47.760 --> 00:58:02.480
This is Walter Silberstein, quote, once I was beaten up by this Japanese guy who was in charge, and quote, this is he's talking about Goya, the one that he said was responsible for saving the Jews.

00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:04.239
So he was beaten up by him.

00:58:04.239 --> 00:58:04.960
Quote.

00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:12.719
The king of the Jews he's been called, and he told this to the Jew, and we were told, don't do anything to him.

00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:14.079
He was a spy.

00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:16.079
He worked for the Americans.

00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:20.159
And to hide that on the outside, he was so rough.

00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:24.320
To hide that for the Japanese, he was such a rough guy.

00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:32.639
If it was proven that he was a spy for the Americans, oh he ran around, and he was good with the Americans.

00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:34.480
I've seen him myself.

00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:36.400
Where did you see it?

00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:40.079
I saw him running around and shaking hands with the Americans.

00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:45.039
Did you know anything of his spying activities during the time in the ghetto?

00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:45.920
Yeah.

00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:49.599
You see, there was there's also this history of the same thing.

00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:53.280
There was the chief of the Gestapo, I forgot his name.

00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:59.199
He had the Gestapo there and he was the chief, and he always ran around in an SS uniform.

00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:05.360
And the German people, the German population there, they hated him, and they were so afraid of him.

00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:07.360
His wife, I think, was French.

00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:09.440
He was married to a French girl.

00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:12.480
And when the war was over, you wouldn't believe it.

00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:15.760
In the same minute, he was the best friend with the Americans.

00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:17.920
The Gestapo officer?

00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:20.960
Yes, and then it came out he was a spy.

00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:22.880
He worked for the Americans.

00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:27.119
So this Gestapo officer and Goya were both spies.

00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:29.440
Yeah, yeah, this one was too.

00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:33.119
I mean, I've seen them both later together with the Americans.

00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:34.639
I've seen them.

00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:40.239
During your time in the ghetto, you observed Goya being friendly with the Americans.

00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:42.000
During the ghetto?

00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:44.320
Yes, during the time of the ghetto.

00:59:44.320 --> 00:59:45.840
Now what you mean?

00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:47.840
I tried to get friendly with him.

00:59:47.840 --> 00:59:50.079
Everyone was afraid of him.

00:59:50.079 --> 00:59:52.320
You didn't know that at the point.

00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:58.159
During the time of the ghetto, did you have any knowledge of his involvement with the Americans?

00:59:58.159 --> 00:59:58.880
No.

00:59:58.880 --> 00:59:59.840
This was the way.

00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:01.199
Later, you're talking about.

01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:02.480
This was later.

01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:03.840
It came after the war.

01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:10.400
Okay, so tell me about your first encounter with G Goya when he beat you up.

01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:13.920
This was the first time I applied for a beta.

01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:14.800
Visa.

01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:20.159
I remember exactly it was on um Yom Kippur.

01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:26.639
I was called for my application that I made some weeks ago, and it took a while, and I was called.

01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:30.480
And I came in and all of a sudden I didn't know what he wanted.

01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:32.559
You see, you have to come in.

01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:34.559
You have nothing to have in your hand.

01:00:34.559 --> 01:00:37.199
When you have a coat, you have to leave it out.

01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:40.880
The only thing is that they don't want you to take off your shoes.

01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:42.320
And then you have to bow.

01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:44.719
And to bow, I didn't bow enough.

01:00:44.719 --> 01:00:45.599
I don't know.

01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:48.400
The girl who was working with him was a Jewish girl.

01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:50.320
She was the daughter of a doctor.

01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:52.880
I asked her later, what did he want?

01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:54.480
What did I do wrong?

01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:57.199
And she said, You made some noise.

01:00:57.199 --> 01:01:04.079
The Japanese now, you have to understand, they have a complex, an inferiority complex.

01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:08.480
And they feel I can't come up with the word.

01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:11.039
I they feel like you don't respect them.

01:01:11.039 --> 01:01:12.960
How do you call them that?

01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:16.719
Every Japanese has an inferiority complex.

01:01:16.719 --> 01:01:22.400
So maybe I maybe I he thought I was making fun of something or that.

01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:24.800
And and so he hit me.

01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:26.960
He slapped you around.

01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:29.119
He threw me out without a pass.

01:01:29.119 --> 01:01:31.119
He never gave you a pass.

01:01:31.119 --> 01:01:33.199
No, no, no.

01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:35.039
And then what could I do?

01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:42.079
About six weeks l weeks later, I was called to the Jewish, to the community center, and they had a whole list.

01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:44.400
They asked, What happened to you with Mr.

01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:44.960
Goya?

01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:48.000
He didn't give, I told the story.

01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:49.920
And they said, Here's the list.

01:01:49.920 --> 01:01:51.119
He will revise it.

01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:54.880
You have to go again, but you have to tell him some explanation.

01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:56.320
So I had applied.

01:01:56.320 --> 01:01:58.880
I'd applied as a book dealer, hmm?

01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:00.239
For a book dealer.

01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:01.840
They gave me an application.

01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:04.800
The Japanese couldn't read the translation.

01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:07.519
They had taken it down as bookkeeper.

01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:11.199
So when I came to Goya at the time, he was very nice.

01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:14.079
You never could know what mood he would be in.

01:02:14.079 --> 01:02:16.960
And he said, What do you mean?

01:02:16.960 --> 01:02:18.239
Why?

01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:20.159
And I said, It was a mistake.

01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:24.079
I applied as a book dealer, not a bookkeeper.

01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:26.559
And so he was started laughing.

01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:28.079
Oh, such a mistake.

01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:29.280
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:30.320
Here's your pass.

01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:34.239
But I had to go every month, every month for a new one.

01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:38.400
And then you were permitted to be a book dealer in that pass.

01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:42.880
Yes, yes, not a book dealer to leave the city.

01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:46.159
To leave the city, what did you have to do to leave the city?

01:02:46.159 --> 01:02:50.159
I had to be back in the evening, uh back into the ghetto.

01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:51.760
I didn't go every day.

01:02:51.760 --> 01:02:54.239
It was only when I had business, of course.

01:02:54.239 --> 01:02:58.719
This started in the fall of 1942, till the end of the war.

01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:06.079
And I would say I never had any quarrel after that with him, because he knew exactly who I was.

01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:10.480
He had a good memory, and he never quarrel quarreled with me after that.

01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:12.800
But a lot of people had quarrels with him.

01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:17.760
Everyone was afraid days before he had to go there because you could never know.

01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:19.199
He could put you in jail.

01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:20.880
He could do anything.

01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:23.360
What language did you speak with him?

01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:24.639
English.

01:03:24.639 --> 01:03:30.480
In English, did you have any other experiences with the Japanese authorities in the ghetto?

01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:35.599
I was beaten up once again during an air raid by a guy I didn't know.

01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:40.639
I had air raid patrol to make and I was smoking, and it was a blackout.

01:03:40.639 --> 01:03:46.159
And the guy thought when I was smoking they could see up in the air, so he started beating me up.

01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:47.199
That was all.

01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:49.599
He didn't say anything else to me.

01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:50.800
End quote.

01:03:50.800 --> 01:04:03.440
So I want to talk about his you know, talking about the gas, both he and Willie Novak with Goya and his relationship with the Jews.

01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:16.400
And the backstory is in 1943, the head of the Gestapo for Warsaw, uh, he was called the butcher of Warsaw.

01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:18.079
Um Warsaw is in Poland.

01:04:18.079 --> 01:04:32.880
Um his name was Joseph Meisinger, and he met with the Japanese officials to implement the final solution to the Jewish um pro problem in Japan.

01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:52.239
In Germany, it was basically the extermination camps, Auschwitz, Birkenau, you know, when you hear about people going being mass exterminated, so they went to Japan, who was their ally in the war, and they were like, Yeah, okay, so we want you to kill these Jews too.

01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:58.000
And Goya was in charge, and basically that didn't happen.

01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:00.320
Uh they were not, I mean, they were not gassed.

01:05:00.320 --> 01:05:13.119
Instead, 120,000 people, Chinese and Jewish, were point put into like one square mile radius area with no plumbing and there was diseases.

01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:18.480
And we talked about this earlier when we talked about with Hella Levy.

01:05:18.480 --> 01:05:23.679
Uh and but it, you know, as she described everything that was going on there.

01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:26.880
But this was the area they were in.

01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:36.960
And on February 18th in 1943, and Goya set up a designated area for stateless refugees.

01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:38.320
Well, Japan did.

01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:44.079
And so that designated area is what became what they call the Shanghai ghetto.

01:05:44.079 --> 01:05:52.960
Before Japan was in a war with Germany or was allied with Germany, then they didn't have this problem at all.

01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:58.639
They were free in the international settlement that Novak talked about.

01:05:58.639 --> 01:06:03.360
They were able to, you know, you know, move to different quarters there and stuff.

01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:13.840
But it was not until the Germans said this and talked about their ghettos in Poland and Europe where you know they had the barbed wire and stuff.

01:06:13.840 --> 01:06:25.119
And but in Japan, they let anyone um stay in this area, but they didn't set up big concrete walls, they didn't have barbed wire.

01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:29.119
Like Novak said, they let the Jews patrol themselves.

01:06:29.119 --> 01:06:36.400
And for those that came after 1937, though they were the ones that had to move into the area.

01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:47.760
They had three months to sell everything and find a way to move into this, like depending on where you look, it basically it's about a square mile.

01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:51.440
Like it's from 0.7 square miles to like two miles.

01:06:51.440 --> 01:06:57.599
Like people say different things, but the consensus is it was about a square mile with over a hundred thousand people.

01:06:57.920 --> 01:06:58.880
So it was pretty small.

01:06:59.119 --> 01:06:59.599
Yes.

01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:16.719
And uh, but and this area that they all moved into, it was liberated um by the Americans in September um 1945, which Hella talked about I was telling you about her at the first part of the podcast, and so she already told you about that.

01:07:16.719 --> 01:07:30.159
But the part about Goya, it's you know, the Germans told the Japanese um that they want the Jews gassed because they were allies and it was what they were doing in Germany.

01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:34.960
And somehow these 20,000 Jews were not gassed.

01:07:34.960 --> 01:08:01.119
And somehow, this guy named Goya, who was in charge, who, from all accounts, I've read a lot that people said about him, that mainly that he was unstable and you never knew when he was going to be in one mood or the next, and it depended on the people he was around, that the Jews weren't gassed and they weren't put into the system that the Germans were using in Europe.

01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:10.880
And I wanted to read from a book, The Rabbi of 84th Street, The Extraordinary Life of Haskell Besser.

01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:13.280
It was written by Warren Kozak.

01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:23.279
And he has this account that happened probably about the time that the Germans were asking for the Japanese to help with their final solution.

01:08:23.279 --> 01:08:34.479
Kozak says, quote, when the Germans pressed the Japanese to turn over the entire Jewish community, the Japanese military governor sent for its leaders.

01:08:34.479 --> 01:08:52.159
Fearing the worse, the community sent a small delegation, including Ashemafar Rebe and Shimon Kalish, along with someone who could translate through English, the one Japan the one language they had in common with the Japanese.

01:08:52.159 --> 01:08:55.199
The Japanese governor was curious.

01:08:55.199 --> 01:09:00.159
He did not understand why these Jews were singled out from all other Europeans.

01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:09.359
When the Japanese general entered the room, he sat down, stared at the group for a long time, five or ten minutes, without saying a word.

01:09:09.359 --> 01:09:14.640
The atmosphere was very tense, and it was obvious that the Jewish men were nervous.

01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:25.199
But finally, the governor broke his silence, speaking in Japanese with a quick, terse question, which was translated by one of his lieutenants into English.

01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:31.359
The English lit Yiddish interpreter then translated it into Yiddish.

01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:34.800
Why do the Germans hate you so much?

01:09:34.800 --> 01:09:47.439
Without hesitation, and knowing the fate of his community hung on his answer, Rabbi Kalish told the translator, tell him the Germans hate us because we are Oriental.

01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:55.119
The Japanese governor, whose face had been stern throughout the confrontation, broke into a slight smile.

01:09:55.119 --> 01:10:02.800
In spite of the military alliance, he did not accede to the German demand that the Shanghai Jews were never handed over.

01:10:02.800 --> 01:10:12.960
They were clear of the building, one of the other members of the delegation turned to Kalish in gratitude and asked him how we came up with such a brilliant response so quickly.

01:10:12.960 --> 01:10:17.760
He gave him an odd, quizzical look, and then asked with a question of his own.

01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:20.720
The rabbi asked.

01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:23.600
He had no recollection of the meeting.

01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:24.640
End quote.

01:10:24.640 --> 01:10:28.640
So we don't know who the Japanese officers were.

01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:33.039
It refers to a lieutenant in here, and that's what Goya was.

01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:41.039
But I you know, we don't have the names, but it it would make logical sense that he would have probably been at that meeting.

01:10:41.439 --> 01:10:48.319
So what we know is that the Germans put pressure on the Japanese to exterminate the Jews.

01:10:48.319 --> 01:11:02.479
And we don't know exactly who made what decision or how the politics of that worked out, but the end result was the Jews in Shanghai were safe through to the end of the war.

01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:04.479
Yes, absolutely.

01:11:04.479 --> 01:11:08.720
And you know, most of these people are dead.

01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:13.840
The interviews were done in the 80s and 90s, their descendants didn't live in Shanghai.

01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:14.399
Right.

01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:19.760
Uh, we do know that immediately after the war, Goya was a free man.

01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:25.199
Like the Americans were just like didn't didn't prosecute him, didn't take him as a prisoner of war.

01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:26.560
He was free.

01:11:26.560 --> 01:11:33.199
But there's also the way that he's portrayed, the Jews portrayed him as a terrible person.

01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:45.119
The there is an interesting pamphlet that it's in the bib the bibliography, the show notes, that after the war they made a um propaganda type booklet about him.

01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:47.119
But, you know, it was derogatory.

01:11:47.119 --> 01:11:49.039
And it was goodbye, Mr.

01:11:49.039 --> 01:11:49.680
Goya.

01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:55.600
And so it, you know, you look at those things and you listen to a bunch of the other stuff.

01:11:55.600 --> 01:11:59.840
The guy never really did anything terrible to anyone.

01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:04.079
You know, it came off as a jerk for not letting them leave the ghetto.

01:12:04.079 --> 01:12:07.920
But then we don't know what would have happened if they'd left the ghetto.

01:12:07.920 --> 01:12:12.399
We don't know what was really going on with him.

01:12:12.399 --> 01:12:21.920
I just know as Hella told us earlier, we heard what she thought about the Japanese and the Emperor and that they saved their lives.

01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:26.560
And so did Novak and Silberstein.

01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:37.600
They that was that was what they came away with was um somehow they were saved, you know, and this was the guy that was mainly in charge of their ghetto.

01:12:37.600 --> 01:12:43.439
Take that however you want to, um, but the Jews didn't die.

01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:44.000
Right.

01:12:44.319 --> 01:12:45.920
They they were not gassed.

01:12:46.239 --> 01:12:46.880
Right.

01:12:47.119 --> 01:12:57.039
Um at the at the end of the interview, the interviewer asked him, you know, why did you leave Germany to go to Shanghai?

01:12:57.039 --> 01:12:59.359
Was there something about Shanghai?

01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:10.399
And he said, This is back to Nowak, he said, quote, It was a very tough time because you didn't know what was going to happen to you.

01:13:10.399 --> 01:13:13.439
Shanghai was the only place that was open.

01:13:13.439 --> 01:13:15.840
We didn't go by our free will.

01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:17.680
We had nothing else.

01:13:17.680 --> 01:13:25.840
We had two choices either go to a concentration camp, because we were told, if you don't leave, that's where you go.

01:13:25.840 --> 01:13:28.239
So there was nothing else to do.

01:13:28.239 --> 01:13:29.600
We had to go.

01:13:29.600 --> 01:13:31.920
What did we know about Shanghai?

01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:33.359
Nothing.

01:13:33.359 --> 01:13:37.520
And there was no other place because we didn't know anyone else.

01:13:37.520 --> 01:13:39.520
It was pretty tough.

01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:40.880
End quote.

01:13:40.880 --> 01:13:57.600
And it's interesting to read the transcripts um from an oral history, the interviews from people that were in the Shanghai ghetto because they went, you know, before the war started, like in earnest.

01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:08.960
A lot of Germans put the beginning of World War II for them at 1942 when the ghettos started and the like mass concentration camps, mass killings started.

01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:17.279
Incidentally, the Japanese put and Chinese put the beginning of World War II in 1937 with the Battle of Shanghai.

01:14:17.279 --> 01:14:31.520
So it started in different places in different parts of the world, but the um the Jews didn't like really didn't come after 1941 because of Japanese control.

01:14:31.520 --> 01:14:48.880
Um, and as we talked about, um Ho Feng Shen was one of the Chinese who saved thousands of lives after Kristallnacht by allowing more visas to come through, thousands more visas of Austrian Jews.

01:14:48.880 --> 01:14:56.479
Um, they had no idea of the concentration camps and things that had happened in Germany while they were in there.

01:14:56.479 --> 01:14:58.800
There hadn't been communication.

01:14:58.800 --> 01:15:05.039
And so many of them were just shocked that you know their whole families had been killed in concentration camps.

01:15:05.039 --> 01:15:09.680
The the chances that you would find your family, it was appallingly low.

01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:15.359
I'm not I don't remember exactly the percentages, but it it was rough.

01:15:15.359 --> 01:15:20.000
You know, you come out and you're like, oh, I'm gonna go back and see my family together.

01:15:20.000 --> 01:15:20.560
Yeah.

01:15:20.560 --> 01:15:22.239
And then, oh yeah, sorry.

01:15:22.239 --> 01:15:23.439
They're dead.

01:15:23.439 --> 01:15:24.960
They were all exterminated.

01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:30.800
So after the war, you know, they came out and it's like, what do you do next?

01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:36.880
And so you had the passports to go to different places in the world.

01:15:36.880 --> 01:15:42.880
A lot of them tried to go to Israel, she had America, South America, you know.

01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:46.560
If some of them tried to go back to Germany, find their relatives and stuff.

01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:58.319
But basically, they got out of the ghetto before the communist, like Shanghai-shak, came and and it and a communist revolution in China came in, and then it was really broken up.

01:15:58.319 --> 01:16:00.079
That was 1949.

01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:07.520
But I think we need to look at China and the way that they saw themselves in the war, just quickly.

01:16:07.520 --> 01:16:23.600
They um coming out of the war, the Chinese saw themselves as one of the big four, the four big policemen coming out of World War II, because next to Russia, they lost more people in World War II than anyone else.

01:16:23.600 --> 01:16:34.239
According to the National World War II Museum in New Orleans, the total deaths of the Chinese were 20 million people.

01:16:34.239 --> 01:16:36.079
That's million people.

01:16:36.079 --> 01:16:45.439
And only a small fraction of those, um, I think less than four million, were military deaths.

01:16:45.439 --> 01:16:52.399
So China suffered a lot during World War II, more than I think most people know.

01:16:52.399 --> 01:16:54.800
You hear about all the other countries.

01:16:55.199 --> 01:16:58.960
So were they fighting the Japanese pretty much the whole time?

01:16:59.279 --> 01:16:59.840
Yes.

01:16:59.840 --> 01:17:07.760
The second Sino-Japanese War, which is what it's called, lasted from 37 to 45.

01:17:07.760 --> 01:17:13.039
Like I said, the Battle of Shanghai um was, you know, the start of it.

01:17:13.039 --> 01:17:17.279
And then it went into the massacre of Nanking.

01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:18.720
There's there's so much history.

01:17:18.720 --> 01:17:22.960
It's like I could tell you about this, but you know, look at it's very interesting.

01:17:22.960 --> 01:17:23.840
Look it up.

01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:32.640
Um, and so it lasted um the second Sino-Japanese War till 1945, with the end of World War II.

01:17:33.039 --> 01:17:33.680
Wow.

01:17:33.680 --> 01:17:46.399
So the entire time that we had all of the things happening in Europe, uh, China and Japan were fighting on mainland China, uh, their own version of the World War.

01:17:46.720 --> 01:17:48.800
And they had their own version of things going on.

01:17:48.800 --> 01:17:56.960
And, you know, you also have to take into account German was fight Ger if you're ready, Japan was fighting in the Pacific as well.

01:17:57.199 --> 01:17:57.520
Right.

01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:04.720
And basically all these wars with Japan in them were because Japan was trying to expand.

01:18:04.720 --> 01:18:05.119
Right.

01:18:05.119 --> 01:18:16.079
And you know, there was a first Sino-Japanese war that had been like I think the early 1900s, but they well, 1931, they invaded Manchuria.

01:18:16.079 --> 01:18:21.359
So it was basically Japan being like, hey, we want to take over more territory.

01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:27.359
Well, I mean, you know, if they looked around the uh the late 1800s, everybody was getting colonies.

01:18:27.359 --> 01:18:31.359
Maybe Japan just wanted to get a piece of that nice Chinese cake.

01:18:31.680 --> 01:18:33.680
I mean, that that's exactly what it was, though.

01:18:33.680 --> 01:18:40.319
When they were coming through that bombing Hawaii, uh, the the hope well, Hawaii wasn't a state then.

01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:43.439
I mean, you know, it was just in the like another island.

01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:45.359
It's like, yeah, okay.

01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:56.239
Um that's so they were, yes, they were expanding across the Pacific, um, which is a whole nother story in and of itself, another part of World War II.

01:18:56.479 --> 01:18:56.960
Wow.

01:18:57.520 --> 01:19:10.479
But I think I think what we need to take away from this is that for everything, there's a much bigger conflict and picture in any part, anything that happens in history.

01:19:10.479 --> 01:19:26.960
When you look at the Shanghai ghetto, you know, and the 20,000 Jews that were there that came there, EC countries that all had to do with this, Japan and Germany, you know, with them becoming allies in 1941, things changed.

01:19:26.960 --> 01:19:43.600
And China and Japan that were fighting at the time, Germany and the Jews, which is, you know, they left Germany, and then the rest of the world, the Americans, possibly working with the Japanese to save the Jews.

01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:59.680
And then you have to also look at all these countries that had immigration quotas that led all the people to Shanghai, because Shanghai and the Dominican Republic were really the only places that accepted Jews throughout.

01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:06.399
The whole who well after Kristall knocked and stuff, um, despite immigration quotas.

01:20:06.399 --> 01:20:19.680
And so I think the main thing though to take away from this is that it's like people are responsible for each other, for saving lives, for improving the life of people around them.

01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:43.680
We talked about the Jewish joint committee and the people in India bringing things to help the Jews on the boat to Shanghai, the Chinese um consulate general in Austria who allowed thousands of visas to go through against his superiors' wishes and the way the Jews did not die in Shanghai.

01:20:43.680 --> 01:20:48.880
We don't know how, but somebody, there was a person responsible for that.

01:20:49.359 --> 01:21:13.199
So, so in what your point is that individual people, even though there's a a global conflict going on and there are all kinds of conflicts and orders and politics, individual people got up one day and decided, you know what, today we're going to we're gonna do something right, and we're gonna try to do right by these people.

01:21:13.199 --> 01:21:22.800
We're gonna help them out, bring them supplies, let them through, and possibly uh prevent the the Nazis from coming and gassing them to death.

01:21:23.279 --> 01:21:25.439
I mean, someone did that.

01:21:25.600 --> 01:21:26.319
Someone did that.

01:21:26.479 --> 01:21:27.520
Yeah, I can't.

01:21:28.880 --> 01:21:31.359
We may not know who we may we may not know who for sure.

01:21:31.840 --> 01:21:33.840
We'll never know who, probably.

01:21:34.079 --> 01:21:34.399
Right.

01:21:34.560 --> 01:21:38.079
Um, but someone did something to prevent that.